Gustavo Gutierrez / Liberation Theology

[Vince]

Since we've been on the topic of reparations and WWJD come the election:

A cousin of mine (also a lapsed Catholic) commented to me the other day that the last 40 years has shown that religion has become more about joining your favorite club and disavowing all the others and not much else. He then shared that Fr. Gustavo Gutierrez had died. He was a Peruvian priest and one of the leading voices of liberation theology in Latin America, the idea in Christian teaching (mostly Catholic) that the bible gives priority to the poor and powerless over others. The Latin American branch of liberation theology especially holds that the fundamental mission of Jesus's ministry is summed up in Matthew 10:34 -  "I did not come to bring peace (social order and the status quo) but a sword (social unrest to fight poverty and the sin of greed that engenders it)."

He truly believed what all three Abrahamic religions teach, that faith without action is meaningless. He and his friend Oscar Romero (killed by one of the El Salvadorian death squads in 1989) believed that you get close to God when you do your best to help the poor, the sick, the disenfranchised. In short, help those who are getting creamed. 

Anyway, Gutierrez's work is now accepted (we read a bit of it in my high school) but still not practiced by those who believe in war, superiority, and class structure. He was a great man. He should be missed but there are many who definitely won't miss him.

[Libby]

I don't think your lapsed Catholic cousin or any person without faith is best equipped to judge religions.  There is good and bad in everything and I don't find my church or my religion to be a big club that claims the other clubs or churches are all wrong.  You can't really know what is going on when you're on the outside peeking in.  Peeking in means you don't see the prison ministry or the feeding of the hungry, visiting the sick, giving comfort to those who grieve.  You aren't one of the people in that so called club who is working to find homes for the homeless and petitioning the government to do what is just.  
For as long as I can remember I have heard and repeated even, Faith without good works is dead so that idea certainly isn't a new one to any Priest or religion.
There are many who find fault in the church but some of us are too busy trying to live lives that will please God to criticise the church.  Change happens but it happens in God's time, not man's time.

[mandy]

It was a Catholic food pantry that my mom went to when we used to run out of food.  There was one at my grandmother's church but she told my mom she better not dare go there and embarrass her.  The Catholic one was nice.  I went with my mom once and I thought I would be so embarrassed but they made it feel like grocery shopping in a small little store.  They were very nice.  When we moved here and my mom and dad spent almost all their money moving here we got food from a church.  I didn't go with my mom that time but they had stuff like frozen porkchops.  It was better eating than when my mom used to do the grocery shopping at a real store.  I don't know if it was that church or a different one that gave me, Misty and Atticus a bookbag and some school supplies.  We had some supplies from Walmart but not everything we needed.  You want to know something that is maybe pathetic?  We got coats from a church we never even went to.  Somebody gave a church our names and they sent us coats, gloves, scarfs and hats.  Atticus isn't thrilled with his but my coat is purple so I'm very happy with it.  Purple and black with a black hat, scarf and gloves.  Churches honestly do a lot of good for people.

[Ruby]

I'm not a religion person since I'm agnostic with an atheist leaning but Scarlette does food baskets and some gift tree at her church.  The Baptist church that is kind associated with our school has a food pantry.  The soup kitchen we sometimes do is Catholic.  I guess I don't believe in religion but I do believe in the good people who are in a religion.  I just don't much care for the hypocrites and the turds.

[Rosie]

You should not call people turds but I agree with you.  Only I do believe in God and in Jesus. I think you and dad have got it all wrong but I love both of you to.

[Kim]

Well Vince as much as I like you, I don't agree with your cousin's assessment and I assume your agreement of it.  It seems a bit self-righteous to me.  Religion isn't perfect but what do you expect?  It's comprised of humans who are notoriously imperfect.  What I'm hearing is that there are two men whose commitment to the church was somewhat superficial and now they're painting everyone with that same brush.   You can't do that.
I'm a Catholic, raised by two devout Catholics.  My mother didn't see it as a club, any more than I do.  There are clubs in the church to encourage fellowship but the church as a whole is not a club to me.  It's a spiritual guide and I know many people who live or try their best to live a Christlike life.  My mother is one of those people.  She never took her spiritual responsivities lightly. Three of my brothers weren't born to her.  She took them in because their own parents couldn't or wouldn't care for them.  Even back in the 70's and 80's the foster care system left a lot to be desired so she took in my brothers to spare them from going into the system.  She never received a penny for it, she had legal papers that allowed her to seek medical care for them but she and my father paid for that care.  I'm a non-practicing Catholic because I'm a divorcee who remarried and that's a huge no in the church.  I don't agree with it but I won't call it a club simply because I don't believe in that rule (or the rules about birth control, homosexuality).  Anything that is run by men (and women) will be imperfect but that doesn't make it bad or dishonest and calling a religion/church a social club is calling it dishonest.
My husband is an agnostic but he doesn't judge the church and the church is the people inside a building.  The pope praised  Fr. Gustavo Gutierre, called him a great man of the church.  There definitely has been much wrong committed in the name of religion but there has also been a lot of good.  The first name that comes to mind is Fr. Maximilian Kolbe.
Good and Bad, just like people.  Imperfect.  That doesn't make it a social club.
Just my sinful 2 cents worth.

[Tatiana]

[Addy]

Institution or People?
I don't have any religion but Carol is very Catholic and she's a decent human.  She gives to charity and obviously she'll take care of people who are in need.  She donates to food pantries and she spends her own money on things  her residents need.  Her religion is important to her.  I don't have a religion any longer but I am spiritual and I do believe in a God.  There's a lot about the institution of religion that I don't like and some of it are their business practices because it definitely is a business.  I guess I don't think that makes them inherently wrong or bad.  A doctor is usually part of a bigger business and even if the business is a greedy one, it doesn't make the doctor a bad doctor or even a greedy one.
There are a lot of good people in religion who try to do good so I don't think it's the same as being part of a club.  The people who belong to a religion, who basically believe the same.....they gather together for community.  I think most people like to belong to something instead of standing alone.  People find strength and encouragement in their religious communities.  
All I'm saying is maybe your cousin has a problem with the institution and that has very little to do with the souls that make up a religion, whatever that religion may be.  

[Vince]

OK, so looking past my cousin's assessment (maybe in hindsight not the best way to introduce this topic), really I just wanted to bring up a broader discussion of liberation theology.

Liberation theology I think would say that donating to food pantries and volunteering in homeless shelters or soup kitchens is fine and all, but is only keeping the status quo of society the same - it's just putting band-aids on the symptoms, and not doing anything about eradicating the disease. What they would argue is the higher priority is political action against poverty to target the disparity between rich and poor in the existing social and economic orders within the state's political and corporate structures.

And that's a view that threatens those in power, both political and ecclesiastical. Pope Francis may have praised Gutierrez and made nice with him in recent years, but in the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s the church was doing its level best to tamp down liberation theology in Latin America because it sometimes made use of Marxist economic theory. Pope John Paul II barred Gutierrez and other liberation theologians from attending a huge conference on liberation theology in Mexico in 1979 and had his successor Benedict XVI, when he was still Cardinal Ratzinger and heading up the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, constantly attacking many supporters of it, suspending and censuring clergy who did not toe the official Vatican line.

But maybe it's just a dried-up hippie ideal whose time has come and gone.

[Kim]

I don't think I would classify soup kitchens, food pantries and other outreach programs to be band-aids.  I'm all for a utopia but the reality is government isn't going to choke out the greed dwelling in the hearts and minds of some people.  Government can only do so much so the outreach programs may not eradicate the problem but much like diabetes medication, it makes it so the diabetic, or person living in poverty, can live with the disease.  The way your presented this topic did feel like an attack on people of faith, you appeared to have a very poor opinion of the motives of people who participate in a religion.

Neither of the Popes you mentioned ever condemned liberation theology in its entirety.  There were aspects of it that they disagreed with and I'm sure it concerned them as change is very slow in the church.  The slow forward momentum in the church isn't due to some malicious plot but it's slow because the Catholic church is rich in tradition and moving away from tradition isn't easy.  Holy cow look at the uproar when they changed the Latin Mass to English.  There were valid reasons for being concerned about liberation theology, including the fighting it caused.  I don't believe it's the churches responsibility to dictate to government how things should be.  I believe that's called a theocracy and that's not something I want to live under.  We're living in a time where evangelical Christians are trying their  hardest to make this country look like what they think a GOD fearing country should look like.  I can't think of a single theocracy that isn't oppressive to at least some part (often women) of the country.  The churches role in society is to take care of the flock and while that may take on the form of political activism, it has to start with those soup kitchens and food pantries.  An ideology is a great thing but it doesn't fill the bellies of hungry kids.  Someone has to do the work of taking care of the people while others fight for a dream.

The popes also had concerns about Marxism.  John Paul grew up under communism.  Their histories influenced their reaction to liberation theology.  I wouldn't be so quick to insinuate there were any sinister motives for their concern.  I'm also a very firm believer in separation of church and state.  I don't want the church running our government and I don't want our government running our church.

I don't know if it's a dying hippie idea as you suggest.  Vince, I know many good Christians who work to help the poor, the oppressed.  I have missionary Priests and Nuns in my family.  They've given their lives to help the poor and oppressed all over the world and they aren't nor were they ever hippies. 

[quinn]

Oh boy what a topic.  Vince likes to l live dangerously.  I've seen religion bring out the best in people and I've seen it bring out the worst in people.  I don't like churches being involved in politics but I do believe it is our responsibility to work for justice.  One person at a time.  That is why I think the thread of politics and WWJD is an important topic.  The only way to change government is to change peoples hearts so that they vote in response to the question WWJD.
I think too many churches have become too political and therefore should be taxed but I guess that's another topic.

[Rob]

When religion meets politics you end up with things like abortion bans.  I'm opposed to abortion but if a young lady is raped and impregnated it's cruel to force her to carry a baby full term.  That's what churches would expect and now because of the Evangelicals we have people like Ron DeSantis littering this country.

Liberation theology is a great endgame but people have to work towards that with good deeds, compassion and generosity.   Are you old enough to be a flower child?

[scarlette]

Vince, I know you're an atheist now but were you ever of the Catholic persuasion?  Or did you just study world religions in school?

Liberation theology and Fr. Gustavo Gutiérrez is about as straightforward as Mother Teresa.  A mixture of good and scandal.  
But seriously, Liberation theology has its problems and I fully understand why some of the clergy oppose it or at least part of it.  It has the same goal as all of us, to get rid of poverty and injustice but there are a few little quirks with it.
First, it discourages the me in spirituality in order to be a we kind of army ready to fight for equality together.  By minimizing the importance of a personal relationship with God and personal growth, he minimized the sacraments which are the foundation of the church.   

Second, he didn't oppose the use of violence to achieve his goal of equality/justice and that is so un-Christlike.  Remember Jesus telling us to turn the other cheek?  One of the reasons the Jewish people reject Jesus is because he wasn't a warrior who came to overthrow the oppressive Roman governing body.  

Third, he minimized the power of prayer and therefore, minimized the power of God.  Praying to God wasn't going to fix anything so we have to take on the battle ourselves.

I'm not saying he was 100% wrong or bad, because his goal was what Jesus wants us to work for, he simply lost too much of the Catholic way in his approach.  It's not wrong to feed the poor, care for the sick and so on.  Helping those who are oppressed by giving them what they need is not encouraging the broken system.

[Cathy]

This is an interesting topic.  
What I understand about Liberation Theology is it forfeits the mysticism part of religion in favor of what is tangible.  I don't think that's all bad but like most things, I find that it's best to take a little bit from one thing and add it to another and repeat as your understanding of God grows.
Church is partly a social gathering.  People come together to enjoy the company of others who are on the same journey.  I don't know how things work in Chicago but here the clergy of a variety of religions come together to care for those who live in poverty, those with addictions, those suffering domestic violence.   Maybe your cousin only sees the socialization part because he's not practicing so he isn't part of the ministry of a church?

[charity]

Change happens one person at a time.  When I did a unit of psychology or sociology I read that studies show that people copy other people and that's one way that change happens.